CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, defending Trump. The Republican presidential hopefuls are getting ready to take to the debate stage for the first time, as Donald Trump prepares to be arrested for the fourth time.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It’s a witch hunt. It’s just a continuation of a witch hunt. Republicans can’t let them get away with it. Republicans have to be tough.
CHUCK TODD:
Trump plans to skip the debate, but why are most of his Republican GOP rivals still planning to defend him? I’ll ask North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum whether he’s ready to confront the frontrunner and his growing list of legal liabilities. Plus, silent strategy. President Biden stays silent on the appointment of special counsel investigating his son
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I have no comment on any investigation that’s going on. That’s up to the Justice Department, and that’s all I have to say.
CHUCK TODD:
But as public distrust grows in the legal system, will President Biden rise to the challenge at this critical moment for the American democracy? I’ll ask Minnesota’s Democratic Governor. Tim Walz, a top surrogate for the Biden 2024 reelect. And law and order.
DISTRICT ATTORNEY FANI WILLIS:
The defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn Georgia’s presidential election result.
CHUCK TODD:
Donald Trump was charged with 13 felony counts along with 18 other co-conspirators and is now facing 91 criminal charges in 4 separate criminal cases
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
How dare low-life prosecutor, deranged Jack Smith, that’s right, he’s deranged.
CHUCK TODD:
How will Trump’s threats against prosecutors, judges and potential witnesses’ impact all of these cases? And will any of his cases be tried before the November election? I'll talk to three former prosecutors about what to expect. Joining me for insight an analysis are USA Today Washington bureau chief Susan Page, Jonathan Martin of Politico, Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinion writer for The Boston Globe. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
A good Sunday morning. This week marks the unofficial kickoff of the next phase of the 2024 campaign as at least eight Republicans competing to take on Donald Trump will meet in Milwaukee for the first Republican debate. Trump plans to skip the debate and instead is reportedly counterprogramming in an interview he already taped with former Fox host Tucker Carlson. Of course it used to be that extramarital affairs, campaign trail tears, forgetting a cabinet agency, even a weird scream could end a presidential campaign. Now, Donald Trump has been criminally indicted four times in as many months, and faces 91 felony counts, and so leads the Republican field nationally by nearly 40 points. Yet, outside of former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, who is polling at 3% in a new Quinnipiac poll and, to a degree, his former Vice President Mike Pence,Trump's Republican opponents, for the most part, are declining to take him on directly.
[START TAPE]
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
We've done over 80 town halls in New Hampshire and Iowa, and Eric, not one of them are asking me about Trump. Not one of them are asking me why I'm running against him or anything else.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I think that these indictments are a disaster for the country. And I say this as somebody who just looked at the polls that have come out in the last 24 hours. I'm holding second in many of these national polls. It would be easier for me If Trump were eliminated from competition
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Instead, in a pre-debate memo from DeSantis's super PAC advises him to "take a sledgehammer" to Vivek Ramaswamy and to defend Trump when Christie inevitably attacks him. Of course, the Republican candidates are terrified of alienating the Trump-supporting voters that they'll need to win by criticizing Trump. But show us the campaign where an underdog beat a dominant frontrunner by not taking on said frontrunner directly. In an interview with The Florida Standard, DeSantis took a swipe at Trump's cult of personality inside the Republican party the GOP and the swipe immediately got Trump and his allies to lash out.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
You could be the most conservative person since sliced bread. Unless you’re kissing his rear end, they will somehow call you a RINO. If all we are is listless vessels that are just supposed to follow, you know, whatever happens to come down the pike on Truth Social every morning, that’s not going to be a durable movement.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Already this morning the Trump campaign is trying to weaponize that phrase “listless vessels” trying to compare to the famous “basket of deplorables” comments from Hillary Clinton in 2016. Trump is systematically right now attacking the prosecutors and judges in his cases and there are new threats of violence. A Texas woman was charged with threatening to kill the federal judge overseeing the 2020 election case here in Washington and Trump supporters posted the names and addresses of the members of the Georgia grand jury who brought back that indictment against Trump. And after promising a "major news conference" on Monday to release what he called an "irrefutable report" proving 2020 election fraud, which of course has been debunked in dozens of court cases, on Thursday, Trump canceled the event. He citing the advice of lawyers. This is a reminder that anything he says in public could be used against him in a court of law. In a Quinnipiac poll this week, an overwhelming majority of Americans, 83%, said they are worried about the system of democracy being able to function here in the United States. President Biden was elected to "restore the soul of the nation," in his words. A vote for Biden was said to be a vote to get rid of Trump. But Trump has made it clear he's not going anywhere. And he is still here. Now, just 24% of Americans say they want Biden to run again, just 30% want Trump to run again. And as Trump has been indicted again and again and again and again, Biden has chosen against taking him on in any meaningful way right now. That choice, and the choice of top Republicans to stay silent, has left a moral vacuum in our fraying democracy. Who is defending the guardrail? This morning, the Biden campaign is defending the president's record in a new $25 million dollar ad campaign which will run across battleground states.
[START TAPE]
BIDEN CAMPAIGN AD:
There are some who say America is failing. Not Joe Biden. He believes our best days are ahead because he believes in the American people. Those who bet against America are learning how wrong they are.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is one of the Republican candidates who will definitely be on that debate stage in Milwaukee on Wednesday night. It's North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum. Governor Burgum, welcome back to Meet the Press.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Chuck, great to be with you. And thanks for having us on this morning.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. Since you and I last spoke about a month ago, a couple more indictments have come down on the former president. And I know you want to get to other topics, but I'm curious on the
former president. Do you think he did try to overturn the election results in 2020, that he made a concerted effort to do that?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, Chuck, this is one of these things I think there's an entire cable news industry. There's an entire social media industry built around trying to answer that question. And where we're coming from, we're excited to be on the debate stage, the least-known candidate on there. If you want to fill this gap where you mentioned 83% of Americans don't trust our institutions, the way that starts is leadership at the top. Any organization I've been involved with, it starts with a leader that you can trust, that's got the character and the integrity, the proven track record of being able to do that. And that's what I've done my whole life in every organization I've been. But people don't know that yet. So we absolutely are going to leave that to this whole industry. We've got to focus on telling our story and telling the story of what we've been able to get done in North Dakota.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, you are running for president. You don't think people need to know where you stand on these issues? You're asking to be the next guardrail of the American democracy. At the end of the day, this is the biggest stress test our country's faced in over 100 years.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Yes, and I think part of a stress test, whether it's for Hunter Biden, Joe Biden, Donald Trump, everybody's innocent until they're proven guilty in this country. And lots of accusations that are being tossed around. But I think that we're focused on January, is when the first caucuses and primary are.That's when the voters get to decide. I do trust the voters. I trust that if we can show that we're a credible alternative, that we can deliver the things that Americans are looking for, because Americans do want this country to move forward, they want presidential elections to be about the future, a vision for the future, then we have to offer that. If I'm just one more pundit criticizing everything that's gone on in 2020, no one's going to see that there's leadership there. So, again, presidential campaigns are about the future. And we're going to paint that picture of how we can improve the economy, energy, and national security. How that's going to improve every American life. How it's going to bring out the best of America. This country's got to move forward, not backwards.
CHUCK TODD:
If Donald Trump is convicted of a crime and you're president, and you have the ability to keep him out of prison, would you? Would you pardon him?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I've been asked this question a bunch. And of course as sitting governor, I have to almost smile. Because, as governors, we've got some limited pardon ability for people in our own states. But if somebody came up and said, "Hey, this person's been accused. There hasn't been evidence. There hasn't been one day of a trial. In 2025 would you pardon him?" Those kind of hypothetical questions, any governor that understands his role would never speculate on that, because it hasn't played out. It's like trying to jump ahead of the entire court system. And I respect the judicial branch has got their job, and the executive branch, one thing I know about the executive branch is we work for everybody. When there's a blizzard in North Dakota, we're plowing the roads for Republicans, Independents, Democrats, for everybody. That's the job of the executive branch. That's the job I'm running for.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to play something that one of your primary rivals, Governor Ron DeSantis, said about the MAGA movement. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
A movement can't be about the personality of one individual. The movement has got to be about what are you trying to achieve on behalf of the American people. And that's got to be based in principle. Because if you're not rooted in principle, if all we are is listless vessels that are just supposed to follow whatever happens to come down the pike on Truth Social every morning, that's not going to be a durable movement.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Do you share his frustration?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I don't. Our poll numbers are going up, not down. As people get to know us, they understand we've got a great message, again, about how we can tackle inflation that's choking every American family, how we can start selling energy to our friends and allies, stop buying it from our adversaries and how we can win the cold war with China.These are the important topics the president has to focus on. And when we're talking to people, we're excited. As our name recognition goes up, our poll numbers are going up. And so we're very positive, and we're absolutely working to create an alternative, an option for American voters to understand who can lead this country forward.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's been interesting to me in a couple of interviews, plus in the one we've just had now. You've been quite comfortable bringing up Hunter Biden on Joe Biden. But it's remarkable to me how uncomfortable you – and you're not alone here – you are bringing up the legal problems and the charges against Donald Trump.And I get it. It's fear of alienating a majority of where the party is. But it's sort of odd. Wouldn't somebody being charged with 91 criminal counts be somebody that you'd want to see drop out of the race? I mean, should they even be running for office?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, again, Chuck, the voters get to decide who runs for office in America. And whether it's a local election or whether it's a state or federal, the voters are the ones that ultimately get to decide. And again, if we're going to live in a democracy, at some point we've got to trust the voters.
CHUCK TODD:
I hear you on that, but it is interesting that you don't want to share your opinion on this. I think some voters will be frustrated by that.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, Chuck, again, everybody's at a different place. If I had 100% national name recognition, if I'd run for president before, if I was living in a major media market and everybody in the country knew me, that'd be a different spot. But I know from the private sector, when we were launching our little company that we then built over a period of time into a billion-dollar company, you don't start out by attacking the market share leader. You start by telling people what you've got to offer. You don't have a basis to launch that. And like I said, there'll be segment after segment on every channel this morning, all the pundits lined up. And I'm not running for pundit. I'm running for president.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this: do you feel as if you should be adding your voice to defending citizens who essentially are part of the law enforcement community, whether it's a threat against a federal judge that we heard from a woman in Texas, or the doxing of members of the Georgia grand jury? I mean, this is stuff that is trying to essentially shake the foundations of our legal system. Do you think you should be adding your name to denouncing those efforts?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I think one thing, we're adding our name to the very small list of people in our giant country of people that are running for president. Because one thing I know is that if we're going to move back and move away from name calling, and threats, and all those things, that's not leadership.
Leadership is about solving problems. Leadership is about character and integrity. Leadership is about bringing out the best of people. It's about respect for others that have views different than you. That's why we're running. And absolutely, when I'm president we're going to lead with respecting everybody. We work for everybody. That's what we'll do. Again, right now our job is, again, it's not the critic that counts. Theodore Roosevelt said it's the man in the arena. We're in the arena right now, and we're working hard to get to that spot.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, tell me what success is for you, then, after this debate on Wednesday night. How will you know it worked?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, it will have worked if we get a chance to explain who we are, what we're about, and why we're running. And we're running to improve every American life. We're running to bring out the best of America. And we're going to do that by focusing on economy, energy, and national security. And these are things that matter to every American.
CHUCK TODD:
You had to sign a pledge saying you'd support the nominee. You call those clubhouse rules. Donald Trump doesn't seem to take that rule seriously. Should we take that pledge you signed seriously?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, you can take my pledge signed seriously. When I say I'm going to do something, I do it. But for me, I'll be voting for a Republican in November of 2024. But we're going to do everything we can every minute of the day to make sure that person is me because I know when I'm President of the United States, we can take this country in a positive direction. We can have an election where people are actually voting for someone as opposed to against the other party.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Doug Burgum, Republican from North Dakota, we'll watch on Wednesday night. And please stay safe on the trail. Thank you.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Earlier this summer I traveled to Fargo, North Dakota, by the way, to sit down with – for an extensive interview with Governor Burgum where we talked about a lot of issues under the sun. And if you want to know his stance on many of those issues, check out our interview in full on MeetThePress.com. And by the way, Burgum got an unusual endorsem*nt at the Iowa State Fair last week from a Democrat, Governor Tim Walz of Minnesota. Walz said, "I'm not a Republican," he told The New York Times, "And I'm not going to vote in the Republican primary. But if I did, I'd vote for him." Well, Walz was in Iowa as a surrogate for President Biden, and he joins us now representing the Biden campaign. Governor Tim Walz, didn't mean to sandbag you there with your Doug Burgum endorsem*nt. But you guys are neighboring governors. Quickly explain your working relationship with him.
GOV. TIM WALZ:
Yeah, well, Doug is a friend. And it's kind of sad to me to hear that interview he did, which was a good one, asking all the hard questions. We've worked together on really important things that governors do, whether that's a flood diversion around Fargo to make sure that the seasonal floods of the Red River don’t – don't hit, and then agricultural issues. But look, Doug wouldn't answer the questions that need to be answered, and you were asking what's going to come out of this debate. The minute they all step on the stage, the American people have lost. Are they going to debate who can ban the most books? Who – you know, Doug, he didn't tell you this, but he signed a six week abortion ban, which is hugely unpopular and simply wrong in America. So yeah, we're friends, but I hate to see it go down this road. Those are very simple questions about – you were asking about the President, about the indictments and so I was a little bit tongue-in-cheek. And the sad part is, I do believe that Doug is probably the most normal of these. That's a pretty weird group of folks that are going to be on the debate stage. Doug's a pretty good guy, but he's trapped in a Republican party with no ideas.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you something about your party. Here's what Congressman Dean Phillips, who's also a part of the Minnesota Congressional Delegation, had to say to me last week.
[START TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Who would you like to see in this race?
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
I would like to see a moderate governor hopefully from the heartland, from one of the four states that Democrats will need.
CHUCK TODD:
So let's see, Gretchen Whitmer, you'd like to see her? Or is it Tim Walz, your home state governor? Tony Evers? Help me out here.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS:
You just said a few names I think would be great.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Later in the interview he also said, "Many of these people don't want me to mention their name on the record," according to Dean Phillips. But look, I know what you've said about this effort that he's embarking upon. And you've said you support the President. Do you really believe Joe Biden is the best candidate –
GOV. TIM WALZ:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
– the Democrats could nominate? Or is this a political expediency answer?
GOV. TIM WALZ:
Well, absolutely. First of all, he's been one of the most highly effective presidents we've ever seen. I sit in Congress for 12 years waiting for Infrastructure Week. He actually delivered on this. And look, Dean is a friend of mine, I love him. But I spent last weekend on Makin Island with Tony Evers and Gretchen Whitmer talking about how we're going to make sure that we win this for Joe Biden, because this is not a debate about Joe Biden's age or experience. It's debate – about protecting the democracy. You just heard probably the most reasonable of the Republican candidates not give you a single answer on things. It's about recruiting jobs back into Minnesota. It's about being able to feed our children. So yes, I do believe the President is the best one. I believe he has delivered and his record shows that. And anything other than that it – it is simply distraction.
CHUCK TODD:
Then what do you make of so many, what is it, fewer people want Biden to run again than even Trump to run again. And obviously it’s that – what do you make of that, that Joe Biden seems to not have this groundswell of support right now? Do you think it's all age?
GOV. TIM WALZ:
No, I think it's – I think it’s our system. I think Donald Trump and the Republican Party have poisoned it to people. No one trusts our institutions, no one trusts Congress, no one trusts any of us, because all they do is attack our families, do those types of things. Look, at the end of the day, Democrats understand if you want to have reproductive freedoms, if you want to move towards a climate agenda that actually works, if you want decency in the White House, you’ve got one choice, and that's to vote for Joe Biden. So I can tell you, we're going to do it, we're going to deliver these swing states up in the upper Midwest. That's what Governor Evers and Whitmer and I were talking about. And I think folks are just tired of it all. But the fact of the matter is, this isn't about Joe Biden's age. This is about the democracy. And they’ll – as we get closer to the election, they'll see that. I'm telling you, after Wednesday and whatever transpires, the craziness on that stage, people start to understand this as we get closer.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious of where you think this race is going to be about. You've brought up democracy, you've brought up abortion. You haven't brought up the economy. And I say that because the economy, look, it’s – on one hand, it's statistically healing. On the other hand, a lot of people don't feel good about it. Even in your state, waning housing affordability imperils economic growth in Minnesota. These high interest rates, you know, people don't think they have purchasing power right now. They may be able to get by, but they don't have the purchasing power they thought they did just a year ago. How do you navigate that?
GOV. TIM WALZ:
Well, first of all, it's a global phenomenon. Here in Minneapolis, we have the lowest inflation rates of 1%. We're starting to see folks start to recover from this. But the Biden – the Biden agenda has actually done more to tame inflation, to start to bring back manufacturing, to focus on high-tech chip industry, and to focus on climate change and infrastructure than any other country in the world. So I think folks, yeah, there's angst in this. We went through a global pandemic. We saw an economy that lurched almost to a stop globally. But we're recovering as fast as any other country. So I think it's telling the story, it's getting out there. I do think this will be about the economy. But look, you just heard an entire interview with a presidential candidate that didn't tell you one single idea what they would do, to do anything about that. Joe Biden has CHIPS Act, the investments we're seeing, IRA, it's working.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, in fairness, I was asking him a lot about Donald Trump and less about his economic proposals. In fairness to him on there, but I take your point there. On the Hunter Biden situation, just 26% of Democrats have a great deal of confidence in the Justice Department these days. As you pointed out, nobody is happy with our current systems, whether you're a Democrat, a Republican, or an Independent. What do you think the President could do to signal to the country that, "Hey, I'm – I’m out of the way here. Hunter Biden is getting treated the way anybody else would get treated." Is there something he could do differently than he's doing now?
GOV. TIM WALZ:
Well, I hope the Justice Department makes that case. And look, I'm a parent of a 16 and a 22-year-old. The Bidens love their son, but they also know that he’s got his struggles. And he's not on the ballot. Joe Biden is, and Joe Biden's record is. And I think what he needs to do is let the system work and, again, you know, I'm sure he wants the best for his son. But if the justice system says, "Look, these laws were violated and here's the penalty for it," that needs to happen. And I think Republicans, again, this, you know, saying they support law enforcement, while they allow-- and you asked very specifically in that last interview about these attacks on the judges, attacks on our legal system. It's a responsibility to stand up with that. If I thought Joe Biden or had seen any proof that he were trying to influence that, I would certainly speak up. He hasn't done that.
CHUCK TODD:
Wait –
GOV. TIM WALZ:
So I think we still need to continue to focus on it.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, it's pretty clear, you know, while we debate whether Hunter Biden broke the law or not, the influence peddling part with his last name was perfectly legal. What Jared Kushner has done may have been legal. The question is, should there be an ethics code for presidential family members here? Should we–
GOV. TIM WALZ:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
– do something?
GOV.TIM WALZ:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Would –
GOV TIM WALZ:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
– you like to see that? What would that look like?
GOV. TIM WALZ:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a broader – that’s a broader issue. When I was in Congress I was the chief author of the Stock Act, not trading on congressional knowledge. My colleagues hated it because they said I was poor, I was a schoolteacher. It wasn't about that. It was about restoring faith in the system, not supporting me or not believing that, you know, we were getting over on something. So yeah, I think that's probably – and I think that’s a great question, Chuck. Because it doesn't get at the tit for tat. When you ask about Donald Trump, they talk about Hunter Biden. Now, there's a big difference there. One's running for president, one's not on the ballot. But yes, I think something – we had the Congressional Ethics Office that sets up. I just think this idea that Donald Trump violated, where you disengage yourself from all financial interest, that didn't happen. And then putting his family in the White House, totally opposed to it. So yeah, I agree with you. Something should happen there.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Tim Walz, the Democratic Governor from Minnesota. Also, as you pointed out, a former member of Congress as well. Appreciate you coming on, sharing your perspective with us. Good to see you.
GOV. TIM WALZ:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, Former President Trump's multiple criminal trials in the middle of a presidential campaign are testing the limits of our own justice system. We’re gonna go – will any of these trials take place before the election? We’ve got a panel of experts here, former federal and state prosecutors, that will explain this count.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Donald Trump now faces four indictments in just over four months in four different jurisdictions. And there are 91 total criminal counts. Let’s unpack a minute. Trump added 13 of those 91 criminal counts to his total this week in Georgia. It was a sweeping racketeering case in which Trump and allies are charged with allegedly attempting to overturn the state's election result. Eighteen Trump allies, including his former lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, face additional charges. Prosecutors have proposed a March trial date. In the federal case charging Trump with attempting to overturn the 2020 election, Trump's legal team rejected the Special Counsel Jack Smith's proposed trial date of January 2nd, which would have been just 13 days before the Iowa caucuses. Instead, they proposed an extraordinary delay until April 2026, a year and a half after the 2020 election, clearly a negotiating tactic. So joining me now to make sense of all of this; former DeKalb County Georgia district attorney, Gwen Keyes Fleming; former Manhattan district attorney, Cyrus Vance, partner at Baker McKenzie now; and an NBC News legal analyst and former FBI senior official, Chuck Rosenberg. Welcome to all. Gwen, you're the newest to my table here, so I'm going to ask you, and you're also probably the most familiar with Georgia's racketeering law. Explain why you think she felt that was the best way to try this case.
GWEN KEYES FLEMING:
Sure. So the Georgia RICO statute is one of the best tools that a prosecutor can use when he or she is trying to tell a complex story that involves multiple defendants who did various acts towards a common goal. And that's exactly what you see here, in terms of the conspiracy to overturn the results of the Georgia election. You have 19 defendants, all of whom had a part or are alleged to have a part in effectuating the fraud.
CHUCK TODD:
So, Chuck, you – on one hand, I've read if it gets to trial, it's almost an easier guilty verdict than what Jack Smith's trying to do. But is it harder to get this case to trial?
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
If it remains that 19 co-defendants, sure. That's cumbersome. But we all know, as prosecutors, that that number often narrows. Many people who are indicted are better off if they plead guilty and cooperate because there are incentives built into all of our systems to do that. So, A, if they go to trial with 19, that's a big complex, cumbersome case. But, B, I don't expect that will happen. I expect it to narrow.
CHUCK TODD:
There's a lot of overlap here, Cy, between federal – between her case and obviously what Jack Smith is doing. You've had – you’ve had some interactions with federal government. You chose to stand down and let the feds go first here. What's the dangers of her having stood down and not going forward? And what's the danger of her going forward with a federal case?
CYRUS VANCE JR.:
Well, I think the federal case, logically, from my view point as a former Manhattan DA who had to address the Southern District in New York, investigating the same sets of facts that we ultimately charged the Trump organization and the CFO on, I think it makes – I think the January 6th case just kind of makes sense to me. Alvin Bragg, the DA in Manhattan now, has already indicated that he would stand down or indicated he might stand down.
CHUCK TODD:
You expect that. We have this trial. There's a date. But you expect that trial that he would stand down. So he'd file a motion to say, "Hey. We'll wait to ask for a trial until after this is done"?
CYRUS VANCE JR.:
Well, ultimately, I think the folks who have to make the decisions here are the judges because we can see how important it's going to be for these judges to be in control over their docket and their courtroom. And I believe, on the issue of how disruptive is the Trump indictment, I think the judges can control what's going on in their courtroom and security. But outside, it's a different matter.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. We have the proposed calendar as it stands right now. Two of these are technically in – already scheduled. But we have a proposed January 2nd trial for the federal 2020 case, proposed March 4th for Georgia, March 25th for the New York case, and then May 20th for the classified documents case. Of these four, the likelihood that any of them are tried before November 2024, Chuck Rosenberg?
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
I think it's likely that a case can be tried before the November election. I think it's highly unlikely that multiple cases can be tried.
CHUCK TODD:
You think one?
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
Perhaps. But, again, to Cy's point, this is going to turn on the judges and their ability to manage their dockets, the motions, discovery, and all of the other things that could crop up in cases like this. So can it be done, theoretically? Absolutely. Will it be done? It's really truly up to the judges.
CYRUS VANCE JR.:
To that point, though, it's also the judges managing Trump. And obviously, they are being very careful in terms of how they are managing his statements. And I think some of the statements are outrageous. But that's – that’s a very – that’s difficult than managing the docket. It's managing the external chaos.
GWEN KEYES FLEMING:
Well, and I think that's important, too. As prosecutors, we all know part of our job is to maintain the integrity of the case and make sure that due process is filed so that if there is a conviction that it will stand and you're not risking anything on appeal.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me put up a couple examples of what Trump has said on his social media platform and ask you guys whether this would normally be used as a way. Here's what he said about the judge. "Judge Chutkan, angrily sentencing a Jan. 6-er in October of 2022. She obviously wants me behind bars. Very biased and unfair;" and then on a witness, Geoff Duncan, the former lieutenant governor, “He is going to by testifying before the grand jury. He shouldn’t.” If he weren't Donald Trump, Gwen, would you expect there had been actual action against him for those comments or not?
GWEN KEYES FLEMING:
So I think we still need to wait and see. One of the rules of the prosecutor is the case will continue to be investigated until there's a verdict. And so anything that is said that could help support charges going forward, the DA could investigate and bring additional charges. Or in a situation where a defendant is granted bond, you could risk a bond revocation if witnesses or others feel that they're in jeopardy.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you expect the judge to be that aggressive or do you think it's going to be more of what Judge Chutkan did, which is, "All right. Then, we'll start the trial in a month"?
CHUCK ROSENBERG:
Yeah, no. I like the way she's been handling it so far. I'll say this. I think of them in two separate buckets. Attacks on judges and prosecutors get the unfortunate – I had it when I was a prosecutor. People attacked me. It's okay. We deal with it. Attacks on witnesses are a very different thing. Attacks on witnesses undermine the integrity of the judicial process, in theory, if they are too scared to testify, if they're intimidated, if they're harassed, worst case scenario, if they're killed. So it's a very different thing to attack a witness than a prosecutor.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly, could Mark Meadows be taken off of this prosecution list if there's known to be a cooperation agreement with the feds?
GWEN KEYES FLEMING:
I think that's going to be within the DA's discretion. We're all waiting to see what happens with the removal. And we'll see.
CHUCK TODD:
And could Trump be dropped from the case if there's a guilty verdict in the federal court? And then suddenly, could you see a decision to say, "All right. We'll drop him. He's already guilty"?
CYRUS VANCE JR.:
In the Manhattan case, for example?
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, or in the Georgia case?
CYRUS VANCE JR.:
Well, I can't speak for Georgia, but I think in Manhattan, there is a question of what would be – what would be the necessity? However –
CHUCK TODD:
Of going at him again?
CYRUS VANCE JR.:
– my own view on that is that you cannot look to the federal government to pay attention to protect state interests, necessarily. That was certainly my experience in the Southern District case. And I think after September 11th, New York said, "New York has to look after New York."
CHUCK TODD:
All right. This was great. I learned a lot. I hope you guys did, too. Before we go to break, the extent to which debates actually sway the minds of voters. Amazing. And without the frontrunner, Donald Trump, on the stage, Wednesday night's debate may matter less. In 1999, Vice President Al Gore and former New Jersey Senator Bill Bradley, vying for the Democratic nomination at the time, faced off in a debate right here on Meet the Press, where the frontrunner at the time, Al Gore, called for even more debate.
[START TAPE
VICE PRES. AL GORE:
Let's debate twice a week, from now until the nomination is decided, and just go face to face about the issues, and get rid of all these television and radio commercials. Why not do that?
FMR. SEN. BILL BRADLEY:
You know something? For ten months when I was running for president, you ignored me. You pretended I didn't exist. Suddenly, I started to do better, and you want to debate every day. It’s ridiculous. The point is, Al, and I don't know if you get this, but a political campaign is not just a performance for people. It's just what this is. But it is what it –
VICE PRES. AL GORE:
And that’s not what I'm doing.
FMR. SEN. BILL BRADLEY:
– a dialogue with people.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Amazing. A frontrunner proposes more debates than a challenger does. All right. When we come back, we won't see former President Trump on the debate stage this week, but we will see him arrested and charged for a fourth time. How are Trump's rivals dealing with it? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for USA Today; Jonathan Martin, the senior political columnist for Politico; Lanhee Chen, a fellow at The Hoover Institution at future ACC power Stanford; and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, the senior opinion writer for The Boston Globe. Hello everybody. We're talking debate politics here, not legal shenanigans. I kind of think we're all overrating the fact that a front runner decided not to go to the first debate. I keep trying to remind people George W. Bush didn't go to the first debate in 1999.
SUSAN PAGE:
Yeah. But this is different.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
SUSAN PAGE:
Because this is the metaphor for this race, right? You have Donald Trump doing an interview with Tucker Carlson right before turning himself in to get bailed out of this indictment in Georgia. And then you've got seven, or eight, or maybe nine people scrambling to figure out some way to get traction against him in Milwaukee.
CHUCK TODD:
You heard Governor Burgum there. And I – look, Jonathan, I'm not surprised by the answers he gave me on this. This is what he's been sticking to his guns. Is that a viable path?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, speaking of an illustration about the larger theme, what a great example of a missed opportunity this morning. You're on national television. And you don't take an opportunity to say something about the biggest question not only in this race, but in American politics, in global politics, okay, which is the possible return of the former president. And you don't say a word about it. And I think, Chuck, that really captures this, I think very, very weak, weak field. Where's the creativity? Where's the imagination? Where's the enterprise? Where's the initiative? Give us something. Try something. Take a risk. These candidates out there wonder why their numbers aren't moving, why this race is static basically. Well, you're not doing anything outside the box. The person with the biggest talent in the field is Chris Christie. And obviously he's frontally attacking Donald Trump, which, yes, hurts his numbers, but at least he's got something to say about the biggest question in the race. These other guys are basically walking on eggshells, or saying nothing at all, and just buying time, hoping against hope. Chuck, we've seen that movie. It's called the last seven years in the party.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Lis – what did he call it?
LANHEE CHEN:
Listless vessels.
CHUCK TODD:
Listless vessels.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Speaking of.
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, the irony now is the toughest Ron DeSantis has sounded on Donald Trump, and it's going to get weaponized because it did sound like he attacked the voters and not Trump.
LANHEE CHEN:
Well, this is why the sort of memo, the leaked memo that talked about defending Trump, that I found confusing. Because this is really an opportunity for Ron DeSantis to do more of that.
CHUCK TODD:
No, you're supposed to take out Vivek Ramaswamy. I mean, that is just, like, that was just consultants –
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Malpractice.
LANHEE CHEN:
But it's somewhat bizarre in the sense that this is going to be the biggest opportunity for any of these candidates to –
CHUCK TODD:
Let me put that memo up, by the way –
LANHEE CHEN:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
– while you're talking about it. The three pieces of advice he got: Attack Biden in the media. Hammer Vivek Ramaswamy. Defend Trump from Chris Christie.
LANHEE CHEN:
Yeah. Well, one of those is tried and true, which is attack Biden and the media. I get that. But the notion that you would go after somebody who is probably going to be an afterthought in this race. I mean, Vivek Ramaswamy is interesting –
CHUCK TODD:
He might be the next prime time host.
LANHEE CHEN:
Well, yeah. He’s interesting, but to Jonathan's point, he's actually, he’s actually doing interesting stuff, like rapping, right, which is what Republicans –
CHUCK TODD:
He is the one candidate –
LANHEE CHEN:
– tend not to do.
CHUCK TODD:
It's funny you say that. He is the one candidate that's not like the others in different ways he's doing. And it is giving him a few –
LANHEE CHEN:
But fundamentally then the challenge becomes if you actually want to take out the king, you have to take out the king.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Right.
LANHEE CHEN:
And so this will be the opportunity for Ron DeSantis and for anybody else who wants to sit in that chair to do that.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
And what was interesting is that Ron DeSantis, I think if he weren't such a bad candidate, what he was kind of breaking on there could have worked. He could have said, "Look. I am envisioning a future of the Republican Party that is not just about someone. It's about something," and laid out what that future is. No matter what happens in this race, he's still a young guy. He still would have a big future ahead of him. But he's just so bad at it that he flubbed that message so terribly that it turned into another deplorable moment instead.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
It's more of an incumbent race than it is an open-seat campaign, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
It's funny you say that. I don't understand why they don't treat it. I completely agree. You got to treat him like the incumbent.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
And frankly, I think some of these candidates actually are further from Trump, the de facto incumbent, than a Democrat would be against Joe Biden, the actual incumbent, right, if a Democrat ran.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, as you can tell, donors don't like what they're seeing, Susan. The Glenn Youngkin, and to a lesser extent Brian Kemp, sort of wish list, whether it's Rupert Murdoch, a lot of coverage this week. Rupert Murdoch claiming he wants somebody. Other donors were disappointed in DeSantis, giving Youngkin money. First of all, they better hope Youngkin has success in the Virginia midterms, which if abortion is the main issue, good luck. But is there room?
SUSAN PAGE:
Oh, please. Glenn Youngkin. I mean, he ran a good race. He ran against a competitive candidate once. He signed an abortion ban, that – as did Governor Burgum, who didn't talk about it. He says he won't get in until November. Two of the four early states will have passed their filing deadline.
CHUCK TODD:
He can't get in their filing deadline. Yeah. It becomes logistically –
SUSAN PAGE:
Yeah. So he's going to skip two of the first four contests? I'm sorry. This seems like a fantasy to me and a sign of what desperate straits some of these donors feel they're in.
LANHEE CHEN:
We go through this in every Republican nominating contest.
CHUCK TODD:
Actually, Democrats do it too. Don't forget about –
LANHEE CHEN:
You know, Mitch Daniels and Chris Christie will come rescue the Republican Party from Mitt Romney –
CHUCK TODD:
I remember that.
LANHEE CHEN:
This is the same discussion we have every time. The reality is: It takes time to build this infrastructure in Iowa. It takes time to raise money. And it's very hard to jump in, regardless of who you are and what your profile is, and expect to run a competitive race.
SUSAN PAGE:
You know the last candidate who had this – a nomination handed to him? I think it was probably Dwight Eisenhower. You got to get in there and fight for it if you want this nomination.
CHUCK TODD:
You don't think it was Joe Biden?
SUSAN PAGE:
No. I don't think it was Joe Biden.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
That moved pretty fast at the end.
CHUCK TODD:
I don’t know. I was just going to say it got close to being handed to him at the end on that. But I take your point on there. But, you know, it's interesting. Brian Kemp – as much as I'm not sure what Youngkin says, Brian Kemp showed up yesterday to the Erick Erickson event. He was the one not running for president.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Right. Listen, I think this is a bad, this is a bad look for everybody who's going to be on that debate stage Wednesday night, that people are still looking. They're looking at all these people, and they don't see a single person that the Republican Party can coalesce around. And they're still looking around. That just shows the terrible state.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. Well, we are going to come back to discuss the other side of the aisle. But before we go to break, 114 people have now been confirmed dead in the western Maui wildfires. Nearly 1,000 more are unaccounted for, according to volunteers. 85% of the impacted disaster area has been searched so far, as well. So please consider giving to the Maui Food Bank, the American Red Cross, or the Hawaii Community Foundation. These are three groups that we believe are worthy of your donations. For more information go wherever you follow Meet the Press on social media. When we come back, there is a growing gender gap in college education. Women outnumber men when it comes to who's getting a bachelor's degree. And it's going to have a profound impact on our political system. Data Download is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time and also back to school time. A lot of classes are starting tomorrow. As college students start flowing back to campus, there are going to be a lot more women than men in the lecture halls, and it is a trend that is also reshaping this country and our politics. Let me show you here the trend data overall of those getting a bachelor's degree. As you can see, pretty steady increase from 1970, 11% of the population. Nearly 40% of the population now has a bachelor's degree or more. As you can see with millennials, you're starting to see a bit of a faster clip there, faster growth rate. What's interesting is the gender gap. In the last decade, women overtook men in who has more bachelor's degrees, and this matters in our politics. Let me just show you overall: currently enrolled in college, there's nearly a 3 million gap between women and men. 56% of those enrolled are women; 44% are men. How does this play out in our politics? Well, we already know there's a gender gap in our politics, mostly due to single women more so than married women, when you look at it that way. But overall, men favored Trump by eight points. Women have favored Biden by double digits. The degree gap is also a place that we've watched a lot. No college degree? That has favored Donald Trump in the 2020 exit polls by two points. A bachelor's degree or more, that favors Biden by 12 points. The point is this: You're starting to see this-these gaps could even grow more as more of this gender gap shows itself on college campuses. When we come back, President Biden stays silent on the Trump indictments and the special counsel investigating his son. Is it a strategy that can work in such a high-stakes campaign?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. So, President Biden was asked a Hunter Biden question at Camp David at the start of a summit that, frankly, is probably going to age quite well for his presidency, getting Japan and South Korea and the United States into a defense pact. But I should play what he had to say about Hunter.
[START TAPE]
REPORTER:
What is your reaction to the special counsel appointment last week into your son?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I have no comment on any investigation that's going on. That's up to the Justice Department, and that's all I have to say.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Kimberly, this was an opportunity to defend the justice system. And he could have not had to say anything on one thing and defend the justice system. Obviously, he's not there, not doing that –
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
– or they didn't want him to do that. It's leaving a vacuum.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
It's leaving a massive vacuum. And, look, he – it's not just that he can talk about the justice system as president. I know the people around him are very skittish about him doing that. It's that he must. He's also a candidate for president, and he has to admit – one of the starkest differences between the Republicans and him is the fact that he defends the rule of law, that he defends the justice system. And with his son in the middle of it, that's a perfect opportunity to say, "Look, I love my son. But I also trust the justice system, and I know in the end the right – the right result will come about it –”
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
“– and all Americans should have that same faith in that system." He keeps missing that opportunity.
CHUCK TODD:
Look. On the one hand, they would argue, Lanhee, "Hey, he's presidenting." And this is an important – and frankly, look, whatever – no – no voter will vote on this –
LANHEE CHEN:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
– but it's hugely important what he's pulled off with Japan and South Korea.
LANHEE CHEN:
Yeah. I mean, listen. There – there are things he can run on. I'm a little confused by the whole Bidenomics thing because you're trying to convince people of something – you're trying to convince them their own impressions about the economy are wrong. And so if you look, for example, at how Hispanic and Black voters feel about the economy, they'll tell you it stinks. Now, they can keep saying, "But we have the CHIPS Act. But we have the IRA." At the end of the day, you can't convince someone that their feeling – how they're feeling about the economy is wrong. And that's what this election is going to come down to. And I get that they're trying to present a proactive message. But at the end of the day, it's very difficult, I think, to do that when people feel, they simply feel differently.
SUSAN PAGE:
You know, I know that the charges against Hunter are very different than the charges against Trump, and we shouldn't make them equivalent. But it gives Republicans this huge, great talking point to kind of muddy the waters about the legal troubles that – that former President Trump is in. And the current position that President Biden is taking on this, his public position, is not sustainable. His son will probably be on trial. There's every possibility he'll be on trial during this campaign. We all understand that Joe Biden loves his son very much. But he needs to say something like what Governor Walz said, who was by the way very effective, I thought, in saying, “If Hunter violated the law he needs to be held accountable.” That is – that’s what an American president should be saying.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
But the Biden staff can't even get to the president about the issue because they don't want to address a sensitive topic with the president. They've got a challenge. Chuck, I think Biden has basically got three issues where he's not figured out what to say, okay? One is obviously the questions about Hunter Biden, his son. The other is what to say about the investigations into Donald Trump. And the third is about his age. Those are three massive issues that are sort of clouding his reelection campaign, and he's not figured out what to say about either.
CHUCK TODD:
And the one thing I want to point out here is I want to show you his – this stuff has taken a huge toll on him. You know, Biden right before the 2020 election, he was right side up, which in our polarized politics is quite astonishing. Look, Trump and Rudy Giuliani began this campaign to try to tarnish Biden, to try to turn him into the Clinton name, you know, with the – with the obsession over the Ukraine businesses with Hunter. And it's worked. His numbers now look more like Hillary Clinton '16 than Biden '20. Kimberly, we – maybe abortion is the difference, there? That – that – that will bail him out. But that doesn't look good for him.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Well, it won't bail him out on its own. I mean, to the point about focusing on the economy, yes, the economy is important. The two biggest issues is democracy, and an offshoot of that is the abortion issue. That is something that should be front and center of a message. Yes, you have to talk about the economy, and through that he can tout the achievements that he made and sort of boost that incumbency value. But he seems to be campaigning in a bygone era that he feels more comfortable in, that he want to – wishes the world were. But that's not where we are right now. We have the former president about to go on trial for attacking the nation's election.
LANHEE CHEN:
I mean, this is two people who are well-known commodities. At the end of the day, Joe Biden's going to run against Donald Trump. That's what this campaign is going to be about. So you might as well make it about Donald Trump now. If that's your goal, if that's where you have to go to win this election --
CHUCK TODD:
Donald Trump's making it about Biden
LANHEE CHEN:
They're two people who are way underwater. Like, this is going to be about one another. And so just – just get on with it.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
But the Democratic Party, like Tim Walz, they're rallying around Joe Biden in part because they believe that that's the safe play. That's three yards and a cloud of dust, to use a seasonal metaphor, Chuck. But what if that actually is the riskier option? You showed those numbers right there. The Democratic Party thinks that Biden is the safe play: "Just hope for the best. We'll get through the next 14 months." I'm not so sure that that's it.
CHUCK TODD:
I think that's – that’s what the Dean Phillipses of the world are concerned about. Look, that's all we have for today. Terrific panel, terrific show. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
